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Are Lotteries Rigged

megamillionaire's avatar - Sphere animated_small_ neg2.gif

I keep seeing topics in which some poster insists lotteries are rigged. My feelings on the subject are; if they are, why is there such a wide divergence of winners. If they were fixed there would be a particular group winning all the time. Now some genius is going to say; well they let one person win then split the money. Not easy to do when the winner is under the scrutiny of the press and the government, looking for their taxes. What do you think?

BobP's avatar - bobp avatar.png

There is a history of lotteries around the world having been rigged at various times so it isn't impossible. 

I think for those of us not in third world countries we're pretty safe our lotteries being satisfied with stacking the odds against us. 

Lotteries seem to do some pretty weird things like holding out a ballset they seem to think will cause a rollover when used because its numbers come out different from the other ballsets for reasons unknown. 

I don't think we need to worry about situations like John Travolta caused in the movie Lucky Numbers.  BobP

Bryan's avatar - Lottery-002.jpg

The "Xtra" game (I've heard several other states talk about having the game as well) is not randomly selected. If you read the instructions on how to play the game there is not  one line in the whole sheet that tells you the game is rigged/or at least not randomly drawn. It wasn't until I wrote them a letter and told them I knew for a fact they were not randomly drawn and I ask them if they were trying to say that they were.

This is the response  I received when they answered that particular question.

Here is more information regarding your specific questions.

The winners of the Xtra feature are randomly selected, much like a
Scratchers ticket, where the winners are randomly printed and
distributed throughout a specific game.  The Xtra numbers are not
randomly generated or selected.  Again, the randomness is in the dvent
of winning or not winning, not in the Xtra numbers generated.

Rigged! Case closed.I haven't bought an "xtra" ticket since. As least, with scratchers you know they are preprinted and you just have to be the lucky one. But they sure didn't let anybody know that about this game...

megamillionaire's avatar - Sphere animated_small_ neg2.gif

The Revolutionary War was paid for in part by a lottery. The original G.W. had to pay his troops some way.

New York has an outside accounting firm monitoring all drawings and uses three ball sets for each game, which are alternated for each game. After a certain period the ball sets are discarded for new sets (The facts can be found on the NY lottery web site). 

Many years ago some employees of the NY Lottery company tried to fix the numbers game by putting water in the balls they didn't want to win, but they were caught and sent to jail. 

Though I have a great distrust for politicians, the lotteries are run by private firms who would suffer great money losses if they were found fixing the games. I truly believe the games are honest otherwise I wouldn't be playing, even for fun.

megamillionaire's avatar - Sphere animated_small_ neg2.gif

Quote:Originally posted by Bryan on December 10, 2003







Here is more information regarding your specific questions.

The winners of the Xtra feature are randomly selected, much like a
Scratchers ticket, where the winners are randomly printed and
distributed throughout a specific game.  The Xtra numbers are not
randomly generated or selected.  Again, the randomness is in the dvent
of winning or not winning, not in the Xtra numbers generated.






Bryan

Look up the meaning of the word lottery. What they are doing is a true lottery. go to yourdictionary.com and plug in the word lottery and/or lotto. They give an example of the park services allotting camping spaces by lottery where the number of spaces are known and the names of the campers trying for the spaces are drawn from a hat or some other container, that's a lottery. The Draft is a lottery you go if your name is drawn. 

megamillionaire's avatar - Sphere animated_small_ neg2.gif

Bryan etal

 

Below is the definition of Lottery.



  1. A contest in which tokens are distributed or sold, the winning token or tokens being secretly predetermined or ultimately selected in a random drawing.
  2. A selection made by lot from a number of applicants or competitors: The state uses a lottery to assign spaces in the campground.
  3. An activity or dvent regarded as having an outcome depending on fate: They considered combat duty a lottery.

Below is the definition of Lotto.

n.pl.lot·tos



  1. A game of chance similar to bingo.
  2. A lottery, typically with an accumulating jackpot, in which participants play numbers of their choice in a random drawing.


equifax's avatar - spherewall

if

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imspeaking for equifax. he says that if the lotto people know a few seconds after the balls drop, how many winning tickets were sold, and of which value, in which cities..............whats stopping them from utilizing this information before and after?nothing is stopping them. nothing is stopping them from taking a "peek" at which sets of numbers were not played.............just before the ball drops.............and using this information....after all the balls do disappear for a millisecond..then re-appear,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,dont they? tape it on your vcr, then play it back fram by frame

Todd's avatar - Cylon 200.jpg

No.   

winsumloosesum's avatar - Lottery-060.jpg

It would take alot of people to rig the lottery.

If anyone had any inclenation that the lottery was fixed there would be an investigation by the Inspector General of that state and heads would roll if such a fix was happening.

Do we say it's fixed because we dont win every other night.  We have to realize this is gambling and the odds are worse than playing casino games or betting the ponies or dogs.

We can always walk away if we think it's rigged and play other games. 

I would definitely say horse racing would be high on the list for fixing an dvent.

When I watch the lottery on TV all I see are numbers flying around like crazy inside a round or triangular shaped machine.  In Pennsylvania they have a live drawing every night versus a simulated midday drawing.  I trust the evening draws that are made.

The only thing that may be rigged with lotteries is the mangement that runs them and the advertising agencies they pay.

I think each state has a watchdog group that looks at the way the lottery is run.  Pennsylvania Inspector General just audited the PA Lottery and found many problems mostly with management, advertising and record keeping.

Watch your own states lottery.  If you thinks it's rigged send a letter to your states Inspector General asking for an investigation.

Good Luck!!

wsls

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it wouldnt take a lot of people to rig the lottery. it would take one person and one computer.only that person would have to know.if you think they are going to allow a charles manson to walk away with millions of dollars your insane. we already know its rigged. what we are trying to do here is unrig it. get it? for those who spout off that the lotto is not rigged. shame on you, you are as bad as the ones who are taking our money. i particpated once in a cover-up with the lottery. and i won. with the stupid gold break the banks remember that? in texas? there was an investigation, and the lotto people said they dont know what happened to the 40,000 packs of gold break the banks? and when the comptroller threatened them, they "found" the packs and i won 25000.00 on one of them.[punk

Bryan's avatar - Lottery-002.jpg

magamillionaire,

Your definition of lottery matched mine....So....how does that in any way, shape or form negate the fact the lottery group is misleading the people into spending all this money on the Xtra game by not mentioning the fact the numbers are not drawn at random. If you want to say they are technically legal in what they are doing that's fine. But the fact remains they are purposely being deceptive and and I feel they would stand to lose lots of money if others knew how the game is actually run. I consider that being rigged. Maybe it's my definition of "rigged" that is incorrect.

Later,

Bryan  :)

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bryan, i wasnt talking to you. i was talking to jugg head. can you email me a copy of that letter?

dvdiva's avatar - 8ball

if you think lotteries are rigged than why are you here?

while the accounting on scratch tickets may very state to state most people here play pick 3/4/5 games or powerball/mega/state lotteries not scratch tickets since scratch tickets offer the least amount of money at the worst of odds. fixing either type of lotteries would be very difficult at best. if the Texas lottery claimed that a set of scratch tickets were lost that would hardly equal fraud. i doubt anyone would forge a scratch ticket if they worked for the lottery what would be the point considering the small amount won.

megamillionaire's avatar - Sphere animated_small_ neg2.gif
Quote:Originally posted by Bryan on December 10, 2003



magamillionaire,

Your definition of lottery matched mine....So....how does that in any way, shape or form negate the fact the lottery group is misleading the people into spending all this money on the Xtra game by not mentioning the fact the numbers are not drawn at random. If you want to say they are technically legal in what they are doing that's fine. But the fact remains they are purposely being deceptive and and I feel they would stand to lose lots of money if others knew how the game is actually run. I consider that being rigged. Maybe it's my definition of "rigged" that is incorrect.

Later,

Bryan  :)






Bryan

Our definitions do agree. The Numbers or what ever the lottery is for does not have to be randomly done. The players or purchasers can be chosen randomly to win. What you are calling rigged is not the correct term for how the Xtra game is run and it is perfectly legal. As far as misleading the people the fact that it's a lottery and what they are doing is one way to run a lottery it is not necessary for them to advertise how the numbers are chosen. When you wrote them they answered you honestly.

Last31Page 2 of 12
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Well, where should I start? I believe that, for the most part, state-run lotteries are honest games but, like any other industry that generates hundreds of millions of dollars, they're subject to an element of deception, fraud and corruption. 

I live in Indiana (not on purpose; my wife is from here), and I've played almost every online game they offer at one time or another. I bought an expensive Pick-4 system last year and used it religiously every day for several months, without a single hit. When I added up my losing tickets, I discovered that I had spent over $10,000.00 on Pick-4 tickets with absolutely no return. (I'll pause here to let the laughter die down a bit.)

I emailed the company and threatened to sue, but the most I could recover would have been the $495.00 purchase price, and the attorney wanted a $500.00 retainer, so I let it go.

While I realize that no one can win every day, it stands to reason that no one can lose every day, either. So, I began to look into the Hoosier Lottery and their methods. Here's what I found out: The Hoosier Lottery did away with ping-pong balls and began using a computerized electronic random number generator for all their online games sometime in 2000, but they won't say when this change was made, and they didn't bother to inform the public about the switch. In addition, at about this same time, they stopped airing live drawings, as required by Indiana law (IC4-30-3-7 (4)), citing "broadcasting conflicts."

On the back of any Indiana Daily Game bet slip there is a disclaimer which states, "The Hoosier Lottery reserves the right to limit the selection of certain numbers." I asked a regional sales manager how they would know which numbers I've played and she told me, "Our central computer keeps track of all that. If a certain dollar amount is bet on a certain number, then that number is red-flagged." "So," I asked, "you know which numbers I've played and how much I've bet on each number, and you have this information before the drawing?" She replied, "Yes; we even know where you bought your tickets." Every state surrounding us has pre-published liability limits in place. For example, Michigan won't pay more than $1.5M for a single hit in their daily games. This protects them from losing money on an over-played number. Indiana, however, prefers to track player selections in the interest of "...fiscal responsibility. If too much money is bet on a certain number, and that number hits, we might end up paying out more than we took in, as happened in New York on 9/11/02." The way I see it, when I buy a Pick-4 ticket, the odds are 10,000 to 1 against me; that's the chance I take. Without liability limits in place, if they have to pay out more than they took in, that's the chance THEY take. They have no business with that information. No one has been able to convince me that an RNG can guarantee the same odds as three or four bins of ping-pong balls. Oddly, they do broadcast the drawing at least 42 minutes after it takes place, and the program is animated to look like ping-pong balls. Consequently, of the hundred or so people I spoke with, every one of them believes the drawing is still done using ping-pong balls. They're certain of this, because they've watched it on TV.

I chased a number for almost three weeks. On the first night I didn't play $10.00 on 3557, it hit. Three friends of mine from two different nearby cities had the same thing happen to them. "Beth" (names are changed) played $10.00 on the same Pick-4 number for a week, then reduced her bet to $5.00 for five days. On the sixth day, she went home with a migraine headache and neglected to buy her ticket. Her number hit that night. "Mary" was playing all the triples in Indiana's Midday Pick-3 game, for ten dollars each ($100.00). On July 1st, she went to buy her tickets, but couldn't get the machine to print a ticket for "333." When the attendant ran her bet slip through, she got a message saying, "Selection Refused." She paid her $90.00 and went home. That night when she checked her numbers, you guessed it, 333 had hit that afternoon. 

We all stopped playing the Indiana games, and I decided I had nothing to lose by trying the system I was using in Ohio. I printed out their past results and entered them into the grids. I had about $100.00 invested over five days, and on the sixth day, I won $6,800.00. I had bet $30.00 and had only played two numbers. Due to handing an attendant the wrong bet slip, I had $17.00 on one number and $13.00 on the other.  

We recently had a Lotto jackpot over $28M. This pool built up over several weeks, as our lotto rolls over in increments of only $500k. Ours is a 6/48 game, so the odds are 1:12,271,512. With ticket sales of $20M per draw (a conservative estimate since we have four border states), this means that 16 million more losing tickets were sold each week, for two or three months, than the twelve million possible combinations, without producing a jackpot winner! I'm not saying it's impossible but, mathematically, it's very unlikely that the jackpot in an honest 6/48 game would reach a level much above $10M.

The Hoosier Lottery is not a state-run game. IC4-30-1-2(2) states: "In construing this article it is the intent of the general assembly that the following policies be carried out: (1) "That the lottery games be operated by the state lottery commission, which is created by IC4-30-3 as a separate body politic and corporate from state government and should function as much as possible as an entrepreneurial business enterprise." Can you say WorldCom... or Tyco...or Enron???

Now, my final point: Since the law (IC4-30-3-7(4)) states that "...the drawing must be public," I called the Hoosier Lottery and told them that I would like to watch a live drawing. My request was summarily refused. When I asked why, I was told, "It's a closed set." I'm no genius, but I know that if something is computerized, it uses a PROM chip or an EPROM chip, which means that it can be programmed. Consider this: If the Hoosier Lottery has their little "computerized electronic random number generator" tied into their "central computer," which tracks players' selections and wager amounts, they can easily minimize payouts on their daily games and, at the same time, build their Lotto jackpot at will (bigger jackpots = more ticket sales), and who would know?

In the poll at the top of this page, there is one choice missing: "Some are; some aren't." Indiana will not get even one more of my "voluntary tax" dollars. It's just a shame that I had to recoup some of my losses from Ohio which, in my opinion, is an honest game. I will say this, and I challenge the state of Indiana, and/or the Indiana lottery commission, to sue me for it: The Hoosier Lottery is rigged against the players. If you live in or near Indiana and you've read this, and you continue to play their online games (I have nothing to say about their scratch-off tickets, because I don't play those, either), you might as well play the foreign lotteries; your chances of winning are just as good.

Before I get flamed by some Indiana player who has won $200 to $1,000 on a few box bets, keep in mind that my position is not that nobody ever wins, but that the Hoosier Lottery will minimize their payouts by programming their RNG to recognize the number which has the least amount of money wagered on it, and then to generate that number in the drawing. It's not in my interest to keep people from playing the lottery; I just want as many people as possible to be aware of what's going on in Indiana. I haven't posted anything here that can't be verified, and it would be naive to think that a state lottery is exempt from criminal activity. Even if I'm wrong about this, even if all of these dvents prove to be an unlikely coincidence, the mere fact that the possibility of corruption and fraud exists is unacceptable. Why change from the ping-pong ball method? It doesn't save any money, since they still pay the woman to read the numbers as they're drawn. They won't tell me why; they no longer answer my emails or take my phone calls (as soon as I identify myself, I'm mysteriously disconnected).  

If anyone else out there has had a similar experience with the Hoosier Lottery games, please post a reply. I would love to hear it.

Continued good luck to all of you.

Todd's avatar - Cylon 200.jpg

I agree on your points about the "closed set" (lack of public access) and computerized drawings.  I think both practices should be banned because of possiblility of fraud.

I don't know why you're surprised that the lottery knows all the numbers being played, and where the tickets were sold.  I should hope they know all that - if they didn't we'd all be in trouble.

It is also a common practice in states with fixed payouts (as opposed to pari-mutuel) that they will limit the number of tickets that can be bought for a particular combination.  They don't want 10 million people to all hit 1-2-3 and bankrupt the lottery.

As for your lottery numbers coming up on the one drawing that you don't play them, well, welcome to the club.

Rick G's avatar - avatar 1766.jpg

Bryan, you are right about the "extra" game and the lottery answered you truthfully on that one....it's the equivalent of a scratch off ticket.  It is not random.

With regards to the other points mentioned in this thread, in 99.999% of the cases your state's lottery is not rigged in any way.  It has only been proven to happen once in the past 20 years (PA, pick 3, many years ago) to the best of my knowledge.

I don't know how other states conduct their lotteries, but in IL their are 15 machines for the P-3 and 4.  They are chosen in a separate random drawing to determine which machines to use.  The machines are individually tested many times before the drawing by an independent accounting company.  The whole process takes a couple of hours and is very dilligently done.  Also each ball is weighed with a very slim margin of variance allowed.  I would think the probability of "rigging" is almost nil.  Why would the state take a chance of ruining its cash cow.  They are already getting 50% of the take so there is no motive for them.  Individuals might try to manipulate the game, but if they are caught you can bet your state will go after them with a vengeance.

Computer derived picks are a whole 'nuther story.  There is a wide open arena for dishonesty and if my state goes to that method I will stop playing.

megamillionaire's avatar - Sphere animated_small_ neg2.gif

New York also limits the playing of certain numbers, for example 777 seems to be a popular number and I've seen many players being told that the number is closed for the day. Numbers with significance, like crashed airplanes, disaster dates are closed if too many people try to play them. As Todd said, to many winners could bankrupt the system. I remember when the mob run numbers (which paid better than the government does and you could play as little as a penny) would also stop taking certain numbers.

lottoshlep's avatar - super 7-top-over.jpg
Quote:O
johnph77's avatar - avatar

Any lottery can be manipulated. Period. Anyone who says they've invented a foolproof system of any sort hasn't fully taken into consideration the fools who run it. Given certain pre-existing conditions, balls can be weighed; random number generators can be programmed or predicted.

But this thread seems to have divided itself into two different parts - the daily games and the jackpot drawings. As far as the daily games go, I'm a little surprised at any jurisdiction that would limit sales of a particular number, like 777. Are the players who select these numbers then playing other numbers or are they refusing to buy tickets to that game at all, thereby lowering the the total take? Is the jurisdiction working on that thin a float? Having to pay out on a number like 777 is a once-almost-every-three-year aberration. The number loses on a straight ticket the rest of the time no matter how many players select it. Over that three-year period after most of the rest of the numbers have come out the state is still going to get their designated cut.

Large jackpot games can also be manipulated, whether by the above means or by non-random number selection by any other means. But what's the point? Almost all of the larger payouts in state-owned lotteries are paid on a pari-mutuel basis. The player is taking all the risk, The state is going to get their cut no matter what numbers are drawn or how many winning tickets are sold. And, since the larger payouts are paid on an annuity basis, the prize is reduced by economic inflation and by the state earning interest on (or by otherwise utilizing) the escrowed money.

Some exceptions exist. In Indiana, the Hoosier Lottery has pari-mutuel payouts for the top prizes. The Cash 5, though, is a straight cash payout game with set payouts at each prize level. But the payout percentage on Cash 5 is only 50.37%. It's a cash cow. There is no reason for any number manipulation except for individual gain, and that would have to be done by someone familiar with, and involved in the operation of, that game. Over the long term, Indiana will still receive 49.63% of all the money the players bet. They'd have to be damned fools to violate a bettor's trust. I realize stranger things have happened, though.....

I was unable to find a game called "Xtra" except in the United Kingdom. Where is it played? I'd like to get the game information to post on my page.

gl

john

LaurainMass's avatar - strawberry

I cannot speak for the rest of the Country ( of course not telling you nothing new) But Massachusetts and New Hampshire has had it's ups and downs.Any cheers for fate?

laurajean

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To johnph77:

Of course you're right about parimutuel payouts on lower-tiered prizes in the Pick-5 daily game and the Hoosier Lotto, the only two games in Indiana which offer a parimutuel payout. However, the state's cut of the ticket sales is NOT always the 49.63% they would have us believe. For example, if they sell 20M tickets for one drawing and there is no winner, the prize pool only increases by $500,000.00. The other $19.5M goes right into the state coffers. If they sell 50M tickets, or 100M tickets, the jackpot still increases by only $500k.

If this were the only issue here, it would be easy enough to laugh it off, forget about it and continue playing. But when you consider that they don't air the drawing live (again, as required by state law); that they have no published liability limits; that they know, prior to each drawing, which numbers have been played most heavily; that they don't air the drawing for a minimum of 42 minutes AFTER it takes place; that they obviously didn't want the public to know that they changed the drawing method from ping-pong balls to an RNG, and given the current state deficit, these "games" begin to take on a rather sinister air.

I can find nothing to indicate that the commission would not feel completely safe in manipulating these online games. Who would know? Lottery players are more accustomed to losing than winning, so why would anyone even question it? Strangely, the Hoosier Lottery isn't even part of our state government. According to IC4-30-1-2 Sec. 2. "In construing this article it is the intent of the general assembly that the following policies be carried out: (1) That the lottery games be operated by the state lottery commission, which is created by IC4-30-3 as a separate body politic and corporate from state government, and should function as much as possible as an entrepreneurial business enterprise." The Indiana State Ethics Commission was created specifically to govern the Indiana lottery commission, but it's a joke. Their rules are laid down by Title 65 of the Indiana Code. 65 IAC 1-4-1(c) defines "Conflict of Interest: A situation in which a person's private interest, usually of a financial or economic nature, may influence the person's judgment in the performance of the person's public duty." However, 65 IAC 1-4-3 Sec. 3. (a) states, "Conflict of Interest: Any conduct that would lead a reasonable person, knowing all the circumstances, to a conclusion that a member, officer or employee has a conflict of interest or is biased is unacceptable." On the last page, we find 65 IAC 1-4-9 Sec 9., Consequences of Violation, "Violation of this rule may (italics are mine) constitute cause for removal of a member from the commission, or result in disciplinary action, including termination, for an officer or employee (Notice the omission of the word "member"). The commission may waive  a violation of the terms of this rule if it determines that the conduct involved does not violate the purpose of this rule. Violation of this rule does not create a private cause of action in favor of any person." How can any violation of this rule not violate its purpose???

In other words, if someone who works for the lottery commission (officer or employee) violates the Conflict of Interest Rule, he or she might be fired, or not. In addition, if you catch an officer or employee violating this rule, you have no cause to sue over it, because the law says so. If you catch a commission member violating this rule, well, that member might be removed from the commission, or not. It seems to me they've covered themselves almost too well.

Only time will tell if my suspicions are correct. In the meantime, I'm going to keep digging. For me, as for most of you, it's really not about the money; it's about overcoming insurmountable odds and beating the game. Keep in mind that the lottery games are not comparable to casino games; the state lotteries can't just arbitrarily engineer an additional house edge whenever or however they want, such as barring card-counters from the blackjack tables. Facing odds of 1,000 to 1 or 10,000 to 1 is daunting enough, but when the odds are stacked hopelessly in their favor, what's the point of playing at all? Why not just write a check every month and send it to the state lottery? No, that's no answer for any serious systems player. I'll still play in Ohio and Michigan, and I'll more than likely lose more often than I win, but Indiana won't benefit from my losses.

When I have more information, I'll post it here, unless you guys are sick of hearing about it.

visiondude's avatar - eye3logo
Quote:O
RJOh's avatar - chipmunk
Quote:Originally posted by johnph77 on December 11, 2003



Anyone who says they've invented a foolproof system of any sort hasn't fully taken into consideration the fools who run it. 





I certainly agree with that. Some years ago, Ohio lottery had a drawing for losers in which they were going to award the unclaimed prize money to losers who mailed in their losing tickets. Each ticket was to be placed in an envelope and mailed to Cleveland lottery headquarters.  It turned out that 40% the winners worked in the Cleveland post office because the postal workers put their envelopes in the top of the mail bags and the people at the lottery place would open the mail bags pick a few envelopes from the top thinking the mail bags were mixed and dump the rest.  They got suspicious when several postal workers won several large prizes, the distribution of the prizes weren't equal state wide.  The lottery didn't blame any of its lazy employees, but blamed the postal workers and filed criminal charges against them.

RJOh

johnph77's avatar - avatar

Jim, political discussions, even about lottery oversight, are probably outside the scope of this furum, but I'd be interested in what yuo should find and accomplish.

FYI, I ran some of the information provided by the Indiana Lottery website on the Hoosier Lottery through my software and was mildly surprised. Given the average quoted pari-mutuel payouts, the payout percentage for the game with the base million dollar jackpot is a paltry 33.62%. The million dollar jackpot constitutes 24.24% of the prize pool and 8.15% of the income should all possible tickets be sold. Is there a minimum payout percentage mandated by the commission or state law?

gl

john   

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dear players,

i have been following this thread for sometime now but can't help to think the following: the states wouldn't risk messing with the games simply because any current employee involved in a scandal of that nature is a potential whisle blower waiting to go off.  most, if not all, of the corporate scandals we have seen in recent years have been brought to public attention by some former employee who was unhabby with their employer over something or another.  if a lottery scandal of the enron scale were to break out the entire system would collapse as players refuse to be suckered into a system that was rigged to snow them on every drawing.

cheers, hitchaser...

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To johnph77:

No, there is no mandated minimum payout for any of our games. Thanks for doing the math on the payouts, though. This is valuable information that I can use in my little crusade. I don't necessarily agree that this discussion is outside the scope of this forum (after all, the header reads, "Are Lotteries Rigged?"), but I certainly don't want to offend anyone here, so this will be my last post on the matter. This is my battle and I had no right to involve any of you in it. Actually, I was hoping to find other Indiana players who have had similar experiences with the Indiana games, and to let them know that the drawings are no longer conducted using ping-pong balls, as most people seem to believe. I'll continue to post on other areas of this site and, when this is all over, I'll let you know how it comes out.

To laurajean:  Fate: Yippee.

To hitchaser:

Yes, I agree; the states probably wouldn't risk manipulating the games, simply because most politicians live their lives under the media microscope. However, as I pointed out in my last post, no politicians are involved in the operation of the lottery. It runs as a seperate and private business enterprise and therefore is not subject to state accounting rules and regulations. An annual report is given to the governor every February but, if he's happy with the numbers, he probably won't care how they got them. As for whistleblowers, the Indiana lottery commission is made up of five appointed members who get large salaries, free cars, expense accounts and other perks. This is justified by the fact that anyone who works for the lottery is not allowed to play. So unless one or more of them gets greedy and tries to screw the others, the chance that any of them would go public is slim. No one involved in any criminal activity thinks they'll be caught until they find themselves in handcuffs, no matter how large the entity. Look at Enron, Worldcom, Tyco, Merrill-Lynch, Arthur Anderson... the list is practically endless, but do you honestly believe that even one of these people thought they would ever be found out? I'll point out once more that I realize I could be wrong about this entire situation. The evidence I have indicates otherwise, but I'm not foolish enough to believe that these two folders contain every shred of information on this scenario. I would like nothing more than to hear their side of the story, but they're not exactly forthcoming with information; they stopped talking to me when I asked them about published liability limits. I'm only trying to gather verifiable information to prove or disprove my suspicions. If I'm wrong, I'll gladly admit it and apologize. But if I'm right, well, maybe I can save a few players some money. Either way, I won't play in Indiana as long as they're drawing the numbers with an RNG.

I'll wrap this up with an anecdote: Every Thursday, a man went to a local tavern for the regular poker game, in which the house took a ten percent cut of every pot. He never won, and one night he told his wife, "You know honey, I think those guys are cheating me." "Well, then," she told him, "don't play there anymore; find another game." The man agreed to try, but at midnight on the following Thursday, he came home with empty pockets. "Let me guess," his wife said, "you've been playing poker at the tavern again." "Well, yeah," he replied, "but there's nothing I can do." "Why don't you just find an honest game?" she asked. "That's just it," he said, "I know the game is crooked, but it's the only game in town!"

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You can all say anything that you want, but i have taken a good hard look at the numbers and more often than not, they do seem to be anything but random.

I don't care how hard, or even impossible something might seem to be, if it has to do with with lotts of money, there is always a way. Proof? What proof ?

"THE PROOF IS IN THE NUMBERS THEMSELVES"

"NUMBERS DON'T LIE" DO THEY?



But none, of these is true, it is just my opinion , there are as many points of view as there are people, it does not matter what others think, but what you think.



They might not be rigged, but i find, a combination of both random, not random logical and something that I can only call man-made crazyness this is by taking a good look at the pick3 game here on Texas, but again, I have always been very paranoid about the lottery , but this is because I have always believed that random, should be random, and they appear to be a mix of random and man-made random.

Maybe I am crazy?

Believe it or not , "RANDOM" IS NOT" RANDOM" It follows what we might call,

"Random Patterns" There is logic, to the ilogic, so to speak.

Everything, has to follow and obey predefined physical and mathematical laws, In truth there is no such thing as random or chance, we made these terms, because we don't know, no better, monkeys, will always be monkeys?

Anyhow , we can talk about this all day and we are not going to get anywhere.



There is no proof that we can take to court, so the point is moot, or whatever.



And the oppinions on this are about 50/50 more or less, so it does not matter what the truth is, 50% say Yes and 50% say NO.



Maybe, half of us are a littlebit paranoid?

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thanks eacaliber. seems like some of yall are beinning to see the light at the end of the tunnel

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