"Kamikaze Craps"... Beyond craps 101

Coin Toss's avatar - shape barbed.jpg

Since there is some interst in craps here and I sworked in casinos in the dice pits

I'll give you a "tutorial" on power presses.

This has to do with place bets.

Here are the odds:

4 & 10 - 9:5 ($5 wins $9)

5 & 9 - 7 :5 ($5 wins $7)

6 & 8b- 7:6 ($6 wins $7)

A lot of people in the business don't even know this, but here's how those ods were derived. A floorman in an illegal game in New Orleans let the players "pick" their own number and place it instread of waiting for the dice to put the bet on the number (Come bet). But he told them they had to add $1 to the bet if it was treated as a Pass Line or Come Bet and he's add $1 to the payoff.

So, for 4 & 10, the 2:1 odds became 9:5 (2:1, or 8:4, +1, +1)

Same for the 4:3 or 6:4 for the 5 & 9, and 6:5 for the 6 & 8.

Back to power pressing.

Make a $10 place bet on the 5 or 9 (or both). $10 pays $14. Instead of taking the payoff, or doing a striahgt press, throw in another $1 and go to $25.

When it rolls again, $25 pays $35 for a total of $60. Just tell the dealer "Go to $60".

If it hits again, $60 pays $84. That's $144. Throw in another $6 and say "Go to $150".

Now if it hits at $150 you can:

Take the payoff, leaving the $150 up. You just made $210 off of $17 out of your pocket. ($10, + $1, +$6, that's all you're in).

Take the bet down. You get the $150 + $210, $360, not bad for $17.


"Kamikaze" it. Throw in another $15 to add to the payoff and say "Go to $375". Should that hit the payoff of $525. You are in $32. If you tsake it down at that point you get $900.

It takes guts to play that way but you're "turning a toothpick into a lumberyard" and playing mostly with house money.

You don't see this very often, trust me, bur when someone plays like this it really makes the bosses nervous.

You're not going to catch 6 or 7 rolls of a number all the time but it does happen. You'll be collecting and just may get $900 for $32 in action while the Pass Line bettors (who read all the books about Pass Line and Odds and be patient) are waiting for the shooter to make their point.

The average player makes a could of place bets and then same bets them until they get their money back. Anyone playing to get their money back has no business playing.

There are ways of powerpressing the 6 & 8 and the 4 & 10 too, but with the 4 & 10 if you have to pay the vig on the buy bets it takes away from the payoffs.

The Horseshoe in Vegas was always known for not charging a vig unless the bets hit.


Good Luck all,



The best approach to craps?


eddessaknight's avatar - nw paladin.jpg
In response to Coin Toss
Coin, et al-
Thanks for sharing this info.
Power Pressing is certainly nothing new.  It has been used since the game of casino craps began to be played.  On any day you can walk around the craps pits and see several players employing these tactics.  And, if anyone of them lucks into a good roll or good combination of rolls, they might actually make some good money that day.  But, unfortunately, employing these tactics doesn't change the odds of the game.  If you play this way, you might win on occasion but sooner or later you will lose your whole bankroll.  In the long run there will simply be too many times that you will lose your $17 investment before it pays off with a $360 win.  Remember, you have to do this with every shooter. 
Many years ago I had a friend who was actually a craps Pit Boss at one of the local casinos.  When he was off duty he would play craps at other casinos and sometimes we played together.  He had lucked out and walked into some good rolls and over a 2 week period had made a pretty good sum.  He tried his best to get me to play that way because he thought he had discovered the Holy Grail.  He laughed at my way of making occasional place bets, getting a hit and taking them down or waiting for a good lay bet opportunity.  But even back then I always tested out any new theory before putting it into action.  I tested his theory of power pressing over several notebooks of live rolls I had recorded and found that it simply was not going to win long term.  The odds showed that and practical application to my data proved it as well.  Anyhow, within a couple of months my friend had lost all of his winnings plus most of his bankroll before he finally admitted that it might not be the Holy Grail that he once thought it to be.  (And this guy was a craps Pit Boss!  He should have known better!  But I've discovered over the years that even Pit Bosses are not always as knowledgeable as you would expect them to be.  Some really know their games but others are more like management personnel who have risen through the ranks.  They are good managers and supervisors but sometimes not very savvy as far as the nitty gritty details of gambling.)
Now, if you understand how the game of craps works and how random numbers work, you could develop a strategy that could make use of the power press in certain situations (which I have done on occasion).  Power pressing is just another possible tool in the arsenal but, used as a stand alone approach, it is a sure long term loser.
EddessaKnight Sun Smiley
Do like the beer.....
Coin Toss's avatar - shape barbed.jpg


Yeah, it's not for everybody.

Since you know the game, you'll get a kick out of this. I worked in a downtown join that had a heavy Hawaiin trade. The Hawaiins play differently. They have to see a number roll and then they place it. We got to the point that we called those bets "Hawaiin Come Bets".

Had they just started with place bets they would have been getting a payoff instead of waiting to "make sure it was on the dice".

Well one night when our crew got off we took a couple of the Hawaiins to the Horseshoe and taught them to play a little more aggressively. They bought in $200 and walked away with about $650 on one shooter.

Since we had to go back to our cars we went back through the casino we worked in with them, and son of a gun, they went up to a table and the next thing we heard was a stickman call "eight, easy eight" and these two Hawain guys say, "Put him on eight". They reverted right back to the "Hawaiin come bets."

Ususally when you see somebody doing power presses it's somebody in the business who is not a degenerate but just taking an occassional shot.

eddessaknight's avatar - nw paladin.jpg

Yo Coin, LOL funny story and not uncommon in LV.

Power progressions etc are all fine if you have something that really works otherwise they can't overcome the odds & all doomed to lose long run >>>>>>

"Blessed Saint Leibowitz, keep 'em dreamin' down there....." ~Johnph77


EddessaKnightSun Smiley

Coin Toss's avatar - shape barbed.jpg

Yeah edddessaknight, people who play more often don't play that way but power pressing sure beats "Came to stay and not to play" (stayers, not players).

Back when the casinos gave comp packs of cigarettes (it was always lites) and some of the downtown joints had white chips for the 25 cent chips the standard request of a "flea" that came up to a quarter (25 cent) game, "A stack of whites, a pack of lites, and calll the waitress."

Fleas are 25 cent (or lowest bet on the game, whatever game) players that occassionally make a minumum bet, are basically renting a spot on the gme so they can get (or could get) smokes and drinks all day or night.

For awhile Sam's Town on Boulder Highway had a 25 cent crap table on the second level and actually had comp walkers for players who needed them. Wehn the game opened up in the morning there was actually a race, with the walkers, to get a spot on the game.

johnph77's avatar - avatar


eddessaknight's avatar - nw paladin.jpg

Hey John,

Nota Bene Wink

Aliens may exist but mankind should avoid contact with them as the consequences could be devastating, British scientist Stephen Hawking warned Sunday.



Do appreciate reading your colorful gaming experiences @gambling ground zero; a collection of these anecdotal stories should make a fun & informative book- maybe interested in the movie rights Smile

~And lastly sharing: the pros told me many blue moons ago to mentally play with an edge, yet stay small and not let them see you coming >>>>Idea

Perhaps, chance (bonne chance) is a fool's word for fate?

EddessaKnight Sun Smiley

Coin Toss's avatar - shape barbed.jpg

Thanks for the compliment, eddessaknight.

One more story.....for those who don't know what a hop bet is it's a one roll bet on a combination of the dice that doesn't appear on the layout with the prop bets. You can bet on a Hard Eight on the layout, a four and a four, and you can bet on a hard eight "hopping" (this next roll). There's nothing on the layout for an eight made 6-2 let's say.

If it's a hard way, a pair, it pays like a 2 or 12. If it's not a pair, it pays like an eleven.

Well, we had this guy on thes tick who had been a grade school math teacher.

A player threw in bets on 5-4 and 6-3 hopping. 6-3 rolled and the stickman started to pay it like a 12. The pit boss, an old timer, asked, "What hit?" The former math teacher said, "They both did!" The pit boss said, "On one roll?"

Green laugh


Parlaying the hardsways

Almost any gobook on dice you read is going to tell you to avoid the props but a lot of money is made on them. It's a common site to see someone beting the props being told by other players that they are sucker bets, etc....It's also a common site to see those other players go broke or grinding out lower payoffs while the prop bettor keeps getting paid. Some shifcts they just hit all the time.

A common parlay is on the hard 6 or hard 8. It pays 10 for 1 (which is the same thing as 9 to 1).

A dollar on the hard six eight becaomes 10 if you hit it and say parlay it. If it hits again you get paid 90 and the bet stays up, 100 if you tske the bet down, or can parlay it again (kamikaze) and if it hits go for $1,000 and down, known as a "thousand dollar dollar".

Very few people play like that but it does happen. When you play like this you havde to understand that you are only in one dollar, win or lose only one dollar of the action was yours, the rest was playing with house money. It is never yours until it's in your rack.

This is one of the tenets of what the casinois consider the "feared player" - Never give the house the chance to win what you stand to win from the house.

In other words, in the paraly example above, the player was only in $1 but stood to win $1,000 if he caught three hardways in a row.

Coin Toss's avatar - shape barbed.jpg

Parlaying the Props (Proposition bets)

Almost any book on craps you read will tell you to avoid the props because of the house pc on these bets.

However, players who parlay them can make pretty good scores. You have to understand that on a parlay you are only in the original bet. That came out of your pocket, the rest of the parlay is house money.

Also, if you spend any time inside the pit on the other side of the tables, you will notice that the naturals, 2, 3, 7, 11, and 12, follow each other an uncanny amount of times.

A Horn bet is 2, 3, 11, and 12 (It's not real popular to include the 7, believed to jinx it when someone is on a roll. If the 7 is included it's a World bet or a Whirl bet).

Another prop that hits more often than you would think is a "Second roll yo", that is an 11 after the come out roll. It's common to bet the yo on the come out but it often hits a roll later, especially if the shooter comes out on "Stars from Mars", a hard 10.

eddessaknight's avatar - nw paladin.jpg

Hey Coin et al-

OK, if player wanted to play this way for fun 'n games  he sould only do it with the 6 or 8.  The house advantage on that is only 1.52%, which makes it one of the best bets on the table.  The place 5/9 has a 4% house advantage, and the place 4/10 has 6.67 house advantage, which makes it one of the worst bets.

Remember me first for movie rights

Where the bones are always rollin-

EddessaKnight Sun Smiley

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